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three pairs of lovers with space



“HILVERSUM, NETHERLANDS   On 10 April the first of two programs about inter-generational sex was broadcast over National Dutch Radio (the second, a month later, dealt with "the way Justice acts against paedophiles"). It began with a very free-wheeling discussion among a group of pre-pubertal boys and girls about their sex experiences and feelings. This was followed by a conversation between Gerard Zwerus, former chairman of the National Youth Emancipation Workgroup …, and Dr. Theo Sandfort ….

Most interesting was an interview with 11-year-old Edgar a Dutch boy involved in a sexual relationship with a 57-year-old family friend, Jan.”[1]

The following excerpts were taken from the VPRO Publiekservice transcript of the 10 April broadcast of Expres VPRO.  The following translation from the Dutch together with the synopsis after it were published in Pan magazine, IX, July 1981, pp. 8-9.  The accompanying illustrations are from the same issue of Pan.

According to Wikipedia, “VPRO is known for producing and broadcasting quality (and sometimes avant-garde) programmes, documentaries and films, the target audience of the VPRO is highly educated and creative people (e.g. artists, designers, scientists).”


EDGAR  That's not so crazy. It's stupid when people think it is. If two grown-ups can have sex, what difference should your age make?

INTERVIEWER  But a man of 57 has been doing it for a long time and has had a lot of experience, and you, as an 11 -year-old, haven't.

EDGAR  So what?

INTERVIEWER  Isn't there any difference, then?

EDGAR  Well, not much. In the beginning I didn't know much about it, but everything just sort of naturally happened.

INTERVIEWER  Was he the one who taught you how these things are supposed to go?

EDGAR  Actually my father did. . . . It was normal for us to go about the house naked.

INTERVIEWER  Did you sometimes lie in bed with your father?

EDGAR  Sure. Maybe in the evening. Or when we woke each other up on the weekend we'd lay in bed talking.

INTERVIEWER  And you caressed each other? Did you also do sex?

EDGAR  No, not real sex, but we'd do it to our penises. They were my parents and I liked it. We all thought it was nice, my mother, too.

INTERVIEWER  And what do you do with Jan?

EDGAR  Well, in the beginning he usually caresses me, and I do it a little back to him. And then he gets aroused. And we don't like it if there isn't enough time. If you want to come and there isn't enough time that's very annoying.

INTERVIEWER  Do you two do it a lot?

EDGAR  Yes, two or three times a day.

INTERVIEWER  How often do you actually see each other?

EDGAR  Not too often, because I don't have vacation all the time.

INTERVIEWER  Don't you miss him, seeing him so seldom?

EDGAR  Yes. I really miss him more when I know he is coming than at other times. At other times I kind of get used to it, and then I feel it a little less.

INTERVIEWER  So you really love him?


INTERVIEWER  Do you ever think it might be nicer to be doing it with another boy your own age rather than a man of 57?

EDGAR  No. I don't think I'd like that very much.

INTERVIEWER  You wouldn't want to?

EDGAR  You mean sex? I'd rather do that with a girl.

INTERVIEWER  Does Jan sometimes want to have sex and you don't?

EDGAR  Not too often. If maybe I'm a little tired I'll of course say I don't want to, and then he won't.

INTERVIEWER  Does it ever happen that you really don't want to but you give in because you are grateful for something he has done?

EDGAR  No, not really. He doesn't pamper me very much. And anyway I usually want to do it too . . .


Perhaps even more surprising was the following interview with Edgar's parents. Both were aware of the sexual aspect of the relationship between their son and his 57-year-old friend. Neither was afraid that Jan would abuse the boy's trust or compel him to do something he didn't want to do. "I am not the least bit jealous," said Edgar's father. "I see it as just someone else you can be crazy about, whom you can love." When asked whether he wasn't afraid that such a relationship might have undesirable side effects on the boy's future, he answered, "Edgar is more open toward people; he has become more human, asks more questions, is more curious and thinks things over better. From Jan he is receiving a tremendous amount of information about things which are important in his life. So I think Edgar . . . . well, I think he is a wonderfully fine boy."


[1] Pan, IX (July 1981) p.8.




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Isaac Ashenbach22 December 2021

What I find interesting about stories like these is that scientists, including social scientists, are supposed to be intrigued by these kinds of anomalies. Even if they do not fundamentally disqualify a scientific theory, the scientific community often keeps lists of observed anomalies to encourage further research into the gaps in our understanding to expand, and if necessary alter conceptual frameworks. The fact that the thousands of testimonies of positive experiences like Edgars make up scarcely a footnote in CSA ideology to me can only indicate that they are not anomalies at all and the government-funded researchers know this very well.

As long as CSA researchers are faced with one anecdote at a time, they can ignore it. And if they're ignoring it, the public will never even hear a whisper about it. The only thing that can crack this wall of silence is powerful, focused blows hitting all at once. Of course, it's dangerous. T. Rivas apparently pulled his book Positive Memories from ipce, and we all saw what Rind went through, but activism like this makes the authorities defensive and angry. Defensiveness and anger in these "experts" encourage the public's willingness to ask questions while the chilling, Nefertiti-like gaze of the academic establishment certainly does not. Keep the establishment on its toes for long enough and eventually it will lose its balance. That's when what Kuhn calls a "paradigm shift" is most likely to occur. Society has already adapted to new stimuli more than anyone ever could have predicted. I think it can do it again.

Sam Hall   1 January 2021

I tend to think our Nefertiti-like social scientists would sooner gouge out their one remaining eye than take a dispassionate look at the evidence, be it clinical, anecdotal, historical, artistic, anthropological or zoological.

Then again, your optimism is a far healthier approach.